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> "The Wine Dark Sea" Official Review Thread *SPOILERS*
How would you rate "The Wine Dark Sea"?
A [ 65 ] ** [53.72%]
B [ 40 ] ** [33.06%]
C [ 11 ] ** [9.09%]
D [ 1 ] ** [0.83%]
F - Stinker! [ 4 ] ** [3.31%]
Total Votes: 121
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Beo
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post Mar 6 2008, 07:40 PM
Post #241
I know it's rather late, but something that was totally forgotten to be added that should not have been; the large bulk of the scene between Gillen and Ro which was very well received by fans, including a lot of the character history developed behind Gillen, was penned by Andrew Foster, and I certainly hope that more of the story behind Gillen comes out from what Andrew developed. Ontarian pride I suppose (is Ontarian pride even a word)?
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post Mar 6 2008, 08:11 PM
Post #242
That was one of my favorite scenes, I had no clue that Andrew wrote it. Awesome job Andrew.

The interaction between Ro and Gillen was so natural that the scene actually made me feel like I knew them, and really felt for their situation.

I know it's rather late, but something that was totally forgotten to be added that should not have been; the large bulk of the scene between Gillen and Ro which was very well received by fans, including a lot of the character history developed behind Gillen, was penned by Andrew Foster, and I certainly hope that more of the story behind Gillen comes out from what Andrew developed. Ontarian pride I suppose (is Ontarian pride even a word)?
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post Mar 6 2008, 11:12 PM
Post #243
Huzzah, Andrew!  Thanks for the update, Beo!
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post Mar 9 2008, 09:07 AM
Post #244
Another insight into the script making process, but who better to develop a young Canadian then another one, eh? :p Like i said in another thread, Gillan is my favourite break-out character, and its nice to see something of his history develop so early. I look forward to more from him, and glimpses into the other characters lifes, pre-Iliad mission.
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post Mar 11 2008, 06:28 AM
Post #245
That would be interesting but probably not possible. If Corey’s parents were assimilated at Wolf359 they would have been on the Cube when it exploded, thus they would be dead.

I’m such a party pooper…
voyager proved there were survivors of 359 in the Ep. With the fractured collective on the planet whrn they linked to chacotay.
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post Mar 11 2008, 04:01 PM
Post #246
voyager proved there were survivors of 359 in the Ep. With the fractured collective on the planet whrn they linked to chacotay.


Yeah, well, how?

That's what made VOY blow so much, as there was no way this could've happen -the cube at Wolf 359 was destroyed and never left the Alpha Quadrant. How survivors made it to the Delta Quadrant is beyond logic.

David
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post Mar 11 2008, 04:07 PM
Post #247
...until some writer-for-hire, working for Pocket Books, figures out a way to justify it, thereby guaranteeing him- or herself a bunch of work, carefully edited down to a fourth-grade reading level.

@The Doctor: Excellent sig quote. I need to learn who Anne Lamont is.
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post Mar 11 2008, 04:08 PM
Post #248
It's not outside the bounds of possibility that they could have sent out a scout or something before the cube was destroyed. Indeed, with all the ships destroyed and new drones, they may indeed have sent them out to fulfil another task. Or maybe some of those drones had been left on one of those wrecked ships to salvage useful technology while the cube went on to Earth.

So there are ways this could have happened. ;)
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post Mar 11 2008, 04:21 PM
Post #249
It's not outside the bounds of possibility that they could have sent out a scout or something before the cube was destroyed. Indeed, with all the ships destroyed and new drones, they may indeed have sent them out to fulfil another task. Or maybe some of those drones had been left on one of those wrecked ships to salvage useful technology while the cube went on to Earth.

So there are ways this could have happened. ;)


Of that I agree with you, Nick.

However, then it should've been mentioned, or acknowledged in some line. But because VOY was never inteneded to appeal to the tried and true Trek fans (it was made for, what UPN head hancho once said, the "absentee" Trek viewer), this little continuity error went over the heads of most watchers.

Of course, either Berman or Braga just could've forgotten about that, but that just proves those two idiots did not hold the franchises legacy in any regard.

David
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post Aug 2 2008, 04:10 PM
Post #250
I humbly offer for your review - our review of The Wine Dark Sea here:

http://www.noriega.biz/Star_Trek/STOdyssey...episode-two.htm
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post Aug 2 2008, 04:16 PM
Post #251
Roger, it's good to get more independant, well thought through reviews. Thanks for posting. I recently came across your reviews after spotting the Intrepid one.

This post has been edited by hudson: Aug 2 2008, 04:17 PM
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post Aug 2 2008, 04:34 PM
Post #252
That review definitely helps put perspective on the quality of the stuff put out by Hidden Frontier. Thanks for your insight, Roger. I look forward to seeing some more of your reviews.
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post Aug 3 2008, 10:32 AM
Post #253
QUOTE (hudson @ Aug 3 2008, 01:16 AM) *
Roger, it's good to get more independant, well thought through reviews. Thanks for posting. I recently came across your reviews after spotting the Intrepid one.


Thanks for the comment. The Intrepid review was by one of my writers: W. J. Thomas!

I have had the reviews posted for some time, just that I never decided to post them at the respective site(s). Obviously I have changed my mind of this!

This post has been edited by Roger: Aug 3 2008, 10:36 AM
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post Aug 18 2008, 01:33 PM
Post #254
I wish I could share in the love on this thread, but I can't. I give this episode a gentlebeing's "C."

The main problem, for me, is the plot, which feels forced. Events don't play out naturally, and the characters don't react naturally.

In character terms, the big plus here is T'Lorra. I think her character is working out well enough. She's prickly and argumentative, but there are many explanations for her behavior. She's Romulan, so there may be cross-cultural issues. What seems nasty to us may seem like constructive criticism to a Romulan. Or vice versa. The Federation has spent 200 years trying to figure these people out, and hasn't gotten very far. Of course, she feels frightened, frustrated, and alone, given her situation, and may express this by lashing out. Her implant is giving her nasty headaches. Any one of these is sufficient explanation for her being disagreeable, let alone all of them.

Perhaps most important, T'Lorra may simply and sincerely believe that the Romulan Guard way of doing things is far superior to Starfleet's, and if only she could reorganize Odyssey along Romulan lines and whip these Starfleet slugs into shape, their chances of survival would improve markedly. But she will never, ever be allowed to do this. That would make anyone a little crazy.

I think Michelle is handling the character just right, and I find myself liking T'Lorra in spite of everything. That's good stuff.

Sadly, Maya Stadi is not working out as well. The opening argument scene makes her look, as others have said, like an adolescent. My impression of Betazoids is that they are more emotionally stable than we are. Humans resort to euphemisms and white lies to shield each other from hard emotional truths, but Lwaxana Troi never understood that. Bluntness is a Betazoid trait, but Maya should be able to take it as well as dish it out.

Also, the Maya Stadi of "Iliad" had the perception to sort out in an instant what was going on with Nevin and Corey, and the quick thinking and self confidence to step in and say, "Let me handle this." When Odyssey was on the brink of destruction, Maya kept her cool and even displayed flashes of wit. The Maya Stadi of this episode is a different person.

I'm inferring that Odyssey is lost and alone, its situation desperate, its chance of survival questionable, its hope of returning home nothing more than a hope, at this point. So why is Maya is so worried about what T'Lorra might do after they get home? Surely there are more immediate problems. If nothing else, you'd think Maya would be self aware enough to recognize that her conduct undermines the force of her own arguments.

It also occurs that, given Maya's wit, the most effective way to hit back at T'Lorra is to mock her. I would guess that's T'Lorra's Achilles' heel. Surely she is unaccustomed to being made fun of, and would react badly. I'm surprised Maya hasn't figured this out yet.

T'Lorra's putdown of Maya after Maya suggests she might be working with the Archeins is good, and a nice character reveal, too. T'Lorra's a genuine patriot. Nevin's "Do I have to be here for this?" is a good line, and an implicit rebuke to both of them. Still, since T'Lorra and Maya both meant to speak to Nevin alone, wouldn't the next logical step be to separate them and offer to hear each of them out individually? You don't have to be Jean-Luc Picard to figure that one out.

It's odd that we learn about the planet with antimatter stores only through dialog, some time after the planet was originally discovered. It seems Nevin decided to give it a miss, and now T'Lorra persuades him to reconsider. I'm not sure what the dramatic value is in talking it out after the fact, as opposed to the more traditional approach of letting us see them discover the planet and discuss it in real time. Also a little weird that Nevin can tell Alex to change course to "the planet," without further elaboration, and Alex knows exactly what he means. It seems everyone knows all about this planet except us in the audience.

And by the way, where are they headed?

The scene where Shanaar gets injured is problematic. T'Lorra's standing right next to the pod and yelling at Shanaar, who appears to be farther away, to come and fiddle with it telegraphs what's going to happen way too soon. It's the old redshirt problem. I note that someone else on the thread actually wondered if T'Lorra had arranged this on purpose. Myself, I wonder if we needed to see this at all. Maybe we could have just stayed with Nevin and Maya until they get the "man down" call.

The sickbay scenes work pretty well, and the characterization of Dr. Vaughan continues to be good. The exchange with the nurse/ensign was a strong moment. I was bothered that he took a shot at Nevin's leadership, though. It seem gratuitous, in view of the fact that Vaughan has already seen Nevin broken up over what happened to Shanaar.

I don't know what a Class J nebula is, but I expect Starfleet personnel to know. I also would have thought that collecting deuterium in the field is something starships have to do from time to time, and that the procedures would be pretty clear cut. Here, it looks at first like a routine procedure, and it's only after the mission is well under way (and only seconds before something bad happens) that we learn that what Maya is attempting is actually a "suicide mission," and that Odyssey herself is in jeopardy if she enters the nebula. This just doesn't sound right. I know Nevin said the process was "risky," but that hardly seems to cover it. Is this really the best option available? Easier than telling Josh Gillen to bump the Bussard collectors up to a higher place on the repair priority list? Again, the whole incident seems to happen to make a point, rather than as a natural consequence of the situation.

Am I really the only one bothered by the fact that T'Lorra did a 180 on the subject of risk? After the first landing, she was for sacrificing Shanaar to get the antimatter, i.e., take the bird in the hand over the two in the bush. Later she argues in favor of greater risk taking. What's up with that?

I like the technique of Nevin's voiceover explaining the plan as the second planet mission begins on screen. It's a good way to keep the pace up. Josh Gillen figuring out alien software on a system he never saw before in a language he can't read is implausible, but I can't blame you for that. The flaw is inherent in Trek; canon examples are too numerous to cite. Still, I wonder if it wouldn't have been more fun and a character reveal to have Josh begin this way and then surprise us. For instance: Josh pushes a button. An alien user interface in Archein pops up. "Can't read that." Josh pushes another button. Another interface. "That's no help, either." Josh scans the system with his tricorder. Then he leans real close to examine it. "Maybe if we cut off the sensor feed..." Suddenly he whips out his phaser and shoots off to the right at some widget that then blows up. Scans device again. "Okay, that'll do it." Satellites now shoot at everything, rather than just at aliens, so 3/4 of the shots hit Archein ships. Good enough to satisfy an engineer, anyway. icon_smile.gif

It scares the bejeezus out of me that Morrigu learned the name of the ship. I don't know why it matters, but he thinks it's important, and that's enough. Easily the strongest moment of the episode. (Is this the part Beo wanted you to punch up, John?) One quibble, though: how exactly did he find out? And how does the word "odyssey" translate in a culture that's never heard of Homer?

"Then why don't you sit in it?" My question exactly.

Another nit: I don't think doctors get to tell captains to drop everything and "report to sickbay." I think he should say, "I need to discuss Shanaar's condition with you," and let the captain decide when that is.

So Shanaar was assigned to Odyssey at Bixx's request? And he'd worked with Bixx in the past? And he was soon to be a commander? Um, was Shanaar an engineer? If so, didn't that, um, make him a better candidate than Josh to replace Bixx?

I don't get Nevin's removal of his earring. It seems to me that a Bajoran earring is as much a statement of cultural identity as of faith. It comes across more as, "I want to fit in better and not call attention to my heritage," than anything else. And that seems the wrong message.

I wonder if the plot would have hung together better if it had been structured like this:


  1. Nevin stays aboard ship and sends away team to collect antimatter: T'Lorra, Maya, Josh, and Shanaar. The away team trips an alarm and a defense mechanism. They flee the building. Nevin recalls them. They tell him they want to stay and try again, but he overrules them. Too dangerous. Ship flees system.
  2. Nevin sends shuttle to collect deuterium. A risk, but smaller than the planet. Maya is injured.
  3. T'Lorra has heart-to-heart with Nevin. Every command decision entails risk. Risk to individual versus reward to ship and crew as a whole. What's important is assessing the risk versus the reward. The nebula mission was small risk but also small reward. Planet mission is bigger risk but potential advantage much larger. Nevin orders return to planet.
  4. Away team tries again. Unfortunately, Archeins show up. Stuff happens. Shanaar is killed.
  5. Nevin ponders irony that his excessive concern with Shanaar's well being indirectly led to his death. T'Lorra tells him that the antimatter they scored is well worth the effort, even so. The rest of the crew is much safer now. Nevin says, "I can't accept that tradeoff." T'Lorra says, "You must learn to, if you are to command." Music up.


My icon_mytwocents.gif worth.
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post Oct 13 2010, 04:08 PM
Post #255
Hello, everyone. My first post on this forum! Yay!

Having watched the entire Hidden Frontier run and two chapters of Henglaar, M.D., I have just begun watching Odyssey. This series shows the accrued improvement since early HF, up to a level I'd call almost professional in overall quality and better than professional in occasional spots.

Despite this appreciation, I came here today to point out one flaw I found in "The Wine Dark Sea". My intent is one to contribute to the show's improvement, as it deserves so much to be acknowledged as the notable achievement it already is.

Maybe the point I make below has become moot in later episodes, but I write from what I have seen, which is really not far: only 1.02.

Despite T'Lorra being a Romulan, she has been inducted as an effective member of the crew (if not of Starfleet), and as such deserves to be treated with proper respect. As an ally, she should be acknowledged as outranking most of the crew (in fact, all of the crew -- a Subcommander in the Romulan military is on par with a Commander in Starfleet). In this episode, she acts very professionally and, even when she disagrees with Ro, she follows his orders and cooperates as an XO would her captain. Very fair.

I have noticed that Lieutenant Stadi, however, is very insubordinate. She screams and argues with her superior officer (T'Lorra) in front of their captain, thereby undermining the authority both of T'Lorra and of Ro. She refuses to carry out T'Lorra's orders. She criticizes her captain's judgment in his face in front of others.

All this would be very acceptable if it were a plot issue, i.e. if it led to a point where Ro would be forced to discipline her in no gentle terms. The way it was depicted in the episode, though, the result came out as very improper for Starfleet characters. Ro spent the whole episode being mistreated by Stadi and never even told her to stop. His orders were questioned in front of his subordinates and he never fought to regain his command of them. In the real world, that would be the hallmark of a command being lost in mutiny. Even in Star Trek, sometimes we see a showdown between a defiant member of the crew and his/her captain, but the captain always prevails out of his/her own handling of the situation. This is not the case with Ro in TWDS. In the end, the Ro-T'Lorra-Stadi relationship came out either as unlikely, or as unbefitting Starfleet officers, which reduces believability.

In the Odyssey's extreme circumstances, it could be argued that stress could lead to a breakdown in the inherent confidence that backs up a hierarchy. If Stadi no longer felt she would ever have to risk court martial, if the Milky Way's distance led to Starfleet becoming a far away abstraction, it could be understood that crew members drifted away from regular behavior. This same predicament, however, befell Voyager. Granted that Janeway was a captain, not just an acting captain, but time and again we were shown that discipline and integration were key to that crew's survival (as much as Janeway's lack thereof, but anyway...). Out of regular training, any Starfleet officer would be in a position to realize that -- T'Lorra certainly has. So could Stadi, and so could Ro explain to Stadi and to the viewer.

As the undue interaction is very much founded in the dialogue exchanged, it seems to me that it has originated in writing the episode, not in directing or acting it. I realize that it is already too late to treat characterization issues even if you agree with me, what with Odyssey having developed into a third season and then folding up. But I beg you to look back upon TWDS and, should it be useful as a lesson in how not to depict command, maybe have it in mind when developing character interaction in future series.

Or not. icon_wink.gif Anyway I mean to see the whole of Odyssey and see these characters mature, even if on a different direction than I suggest.

Keep up the quality!
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post Oct 18 2010, 07:03 PM
Post #256
Yeah I'd agree there .. the character of Stadi needs a swift boot in the posterior icon_razz.gif It's a bit like watching Teegan from the 1981 Doctor Who era .. man she was a bossy, bitchy little cow .. and the Doctor was very glad to leave her on earth after 'Timeflight'. Stadi isn't quite so bad, but you do wonder why Ro lets her get away with it since T'Lorra is actually doing her job, and doing it well. Mind you .. why T'Lorra is putting up with it is anyones guess too.

Well I let it ride cos the series is terrific.

Anyways, I'm kinda in the middle of scoring Odyssey: Tossed upon the shore so i'd best get back to it. I could tell you all how it all ends .. BUWUHAHAHAH!!! .. but I won't cos I'm selfish icon_biggrin.gif (And Rob would kick my ass!)
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post Oct 31 2010, 02:19 PM
Post #257
QUOTE (Sr Atoz @ Oct 13 2010, 04:08 PM) *
Hello, everyone. My first post on this forum! Yay!

Having watched the entire Hidden Frontier run and two chapters of Henglaar, M.D., I have just begun watching Odyssey. This series shows the accrued improvement since early HF, up to a level I'd call almost professional in overall quality and better than professional in occasional spots.

Despite this appreciation, I came here today to point out one flaw I found in "The Wine Dark Sea". My intent is one to contribute to the show's improvement, as it deserves so much to be acknowledged as the notable achievement it already is.

Maybe the point I make below has become moot in later episodes, but I write from what I have seen, which is really not far: only 1.02.

Despite T'Lorra being a Romulan, she has been inducted as an effective member of the crew (if not of Starfleet), and as such deserves to be treated with proper respect. As an ally, she should be acknowledged as outranking most of the crew (in fact, all of the crew -- a Subcommander in the Romulan military is on par with a Commander in Starfleet). In this episode, she acts very professionally and, even when she disagrees with Ro, she follows his orders and cooperates as an XO would her captain. Very fair.

I have noticed that Lieutenant Stadi, however, is very insubordinate. She screams and argues with her superior officer (T'Lorra) in front of their captain, thereby undermining the authority both of T'Lorra and of Ro. She refuses to carry out T'Lorra's orders. She criticizes her captain's judgment in his face in front of others.

All this would be very acceptable if it were a plot issue, i.e. if it led to a point where Ro would be forced to discipline her in no gentle terms. The way it was depicted in the episode, though, the result came out as very improper for Starfleet characters. Ro spent the whole episode being mistreated by Stadi and never even told her to stop. His orders were questioned in front of his subordinates and he never fought to regain his command of them. In the real world, that would be the hallmark of a command being lost in mutiny. Even in Star Trek, sometimes we see a showdown between a defiant member of the crew and his/her captain, but the captain always prevails out of his/her own handling of the situation. This is not the case with Ro in TWDS. In the end, the Ro-T'Lorra-Stadi relationship came out either as unlikely, or as unbefitting Starfleet officers, which reduces believability.

In the Odyssey's extreme circumstances, it could be argued that stress could lead to a breakdown in the inherent confidence that backs up a hierarchy. If Stadi no longer felt she would ever have to risk court martial, if the Milky Way's distance led to Starfleet becoming a far away abstraction, it could be understood that crew members drifted away from regular behavior. This same predicament, however, befell Voyager. Granted that Janeway was a captain, not just an acting captain, but time and again we were shown that discipline and integration were key to that crew's survival (as much as Janeway's lack thereof, but anyway...). Out of regular training, any Starfleet officer would be in a position to realize that -- T'Lorra certainly has. So could Stadi, and so could Ro explain to Stadi and to the viewer.

As the undue interaction is very much founded in the dialogue exchanged, it seems to me that it has originated in writing the episode, not in directing or acting it. I realize that it is already too late to treat characterization issues even if you agree with me, what with Odyssey having developed into a third season and then folding up. But I beg you to look back upon TWDS and, should it be useful as a lesson in how not to depict command, maybe have it in mind when developing character interaction in future series.

Or not. icon_wink.gif Anyway I mean to see the whole of Odyssey and see these characters mature, even if on a different direction than I suggest.

Keep up the quality!

Hi! Thanks for the thorough review, and I'm glad that you plan to keep watching. Given your criticism of Wine Dark Sea, and what you hope to see in the future, I think you'll be generally pleased.

I think that two years on it'd be appropriate for me to address how I approached this episode, and how I approached later episodes that I worked on - specifically, if you haven't seen the season two opening episode "On the Knees of the Gods", you may want to watch that before reading the rest of this post.

--

OK! I think we need to bear in mind who Ro Nevin is at this stage of the game. He's a clever, brilliant scientist, who was placed as science officer aboard the ship. Above him in rank you had the chief engineer, the first officer, and the captain. Most likely there'd have been a few other commanders on the ship as well, but who knows what happened to them? So, you've got Lt. Cmdr Ro, a science officer. He isn't in the command career path, and most likely wouldn't have desired a command of his own. The pressures of command, and knowing how to make command decisions, occurs for all ranks at Commander, when they have to take that test. There's an episode, the name of which I can't remember, where Deanna Troi has to pass a test in order to gain her rank, and she fails many, many times before realizing that it isn't a test of her technical skills, but a test of her ability to order a man to die. This was an incredibly hard lesson for her to learn, and she was intent on learning it because she wanted the advancement in rank.

Ro had never shown an interest in command. This doesn't mean that he doesn't have the capacity for it, but he's never wanted it. The position was literally thrust upon him because absolutely no-one else was a high enough rank to take the job, and he was already pretty far down the pecking order. If anything, T'Lorra should have been the captain since she had actual experience at leading a ship in both regular and combat situations. T'Lorra knows she should be captain. And Ro knows that she'd probably be the better choice, if she wasn't a Romulan. Stadi knows it deep down, but refuses to acknowledge it.

The whole point of Wine Dark Sea is that it sets up Ro to fail. He doesn't succeed at sitting in the captain's chair, and disciplining the crew, and if he had been able to do that by the end of the episode I don't think we would have told an authentic story. Command doesn't come easily to people. It takes experience, it takes making mistakes, and it takes a lot of training that he lacks. So you have all of these components - a woman who is experienced enough, and frustrated at the circumstances that her environment has forced her into, another woman who can tell exactly what all of these people are feeling and generally hates it, and a man in charge who really doesn't know what he's doing. Should he interrupt these people? How does he tell the woman with more experience than him to sit down and shut up? How can he tell Stadi to be quiet when a lot of what she's saying, he's thinking? And to your comparison to Janeway, she had a full senior staff, and a lot of training behind her. She was prepared to be in the role of captain. I bet you any number that had you taken Janeway as a lieutenant commander, she'd probably have done better than Ro due to her ambition, but not much better.

Under ideal circumstances they would indeed be treating T'Lorra with respect. But the situation they're in - desperate, hopeless, sad, and without end - would mean that after a few weeks they'd be at the very end of their tether. So absolutely none of them are acting as they should, and Ro clearly fails to stop them, which means this behaviour will grow until either they kill each other, or Ro finally steps up to the mark.

I agree; as a viewer, I desperately wanted Ro to actually stand up for himself and his authority. But, if he had, the whole of Ro's story arc for the series would have lacked impact and authenticity. The path that Ro would take as far as his being able to assert himself in the role of captain was laid out before this episode was even fully written, and so as a writer, we had the journey of Ro from the poor science officer thrust into shoes too big for him to the more confident, thoughtful and assertive captain mapped out as an arc that extends far beyond this episode. Yes, the conduct was absolutely unbefitting Starfleet officers. And that was the point. And so, the intention for Ro in this episode was to fail, miserably, at what he was meant to do. Which makes his success all the more engaging when he finally gets there.

And also, if we had set up so that Ro has these issues at the beginning of the episode, and resolves them at the end of it, where does the journey go? How do we show Ro's growth when it's so tempting to just have it all resolve itself in one episode? Again, it came back, for me, to issues of authenticity. And I believe the scenario that occurred in WDS is much more likely than what may occur in a Star Trek setting, where problem and resolution nicely happens in 45 minutes.

I know that a lot of people have found issue with Stadi, T'Lorra and Ro's attitudes in this episode, and I absolutely intended for you guys to see the characters in the negative lights they were portraying each other. I didn't quite anticipate the number of people that would have thought it impacted believability, so I take that on board, but I do hope that you all continue to watch, and see how the arcs set up in this (only the second episode of the first season) continues to play out. The choices for how each character acts in this episode was very deliberately made, as they were in later episodes, to further the story and character development. And if I had taken the chance to have each character reform by the end of WDS, the story would have been too easy for the characters. So keep watching. It's all been planned out, and I would be keen to hear your thoughts when you get through half of the second season.

Thanks,

Beo Fraser
Director and Writer of Wine Dark Sea, Director of Keepers of the Wind, Writer of On the Knees of the Gods, Co-director and Writer of Tossed Upon the Shore.
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Sr Atoz
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post Nov 9 2010, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE (Beo @ Oct 31 2010, 07:19 PM) *
as a viewer, I desperately wanted Ro to actually stand up for himself and his authority. But, if he had, the whole of Ro's story arc for the series would have lacked impact and authenticity. The path that Ro would take as far as his being able to assert himself in the role of captain was laid out before this episode was even fully written, and so as a writer, we had the journey of Ro (...) mapped out as an arc that extends far beyond this episode.


In the light of this, then, I can conclude that this IS/WAS a plot point after all, which is good. I see that my impressions were authentic (in that I reacted as expected) and, may I point out, I said "All this would be very acceptable if it were a plot issue (...)". It was. It's just that it was not a one-episode-only plot issue, but a season or even series plot issue.

In which case, I withdraw my criticism! My perception of facts was correct, but my judgment on these facts was conditioned to one hypothesis: that this was not a plot issue. Now, since it is clear that it was, my judgment does not apply.

Meanwhile, I have seen "Vile Gods". Hm... The acting was fine (the actors doing T'Lorra and Dr. Vaughn are great), but I didn't much like my first view of this one either. The edition seems erratic. It looks like some scenes must have been cut, because the end result is T'Lorra acting unfathomably, one time going one way, the next time going into another, complete opposite direction. Of course, (1) she is a Romulan, therefore expected to behave exactly like that, and (2) I have been known to pass early judgment on "The Wine Dark Sea", so there probably is something going on that I do not know about yet.

But I digress. The topic is "The Wine Dark Sea", not "Vile Gods". On this account, and having read Beo's explanation above, this episode leaves an entirely new impression on me. Now I definitely want to see more!

This post has been edited by Sr Atoz: Nov 9 2010, 06:40 AM
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post Nov 9 2010, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE (Sr Atoz @ Nov 9 2010, 06:35 AM) *
Meanwhile, I have seen "Vile Gods". Hm... The acting was fine (the actors doing T'Lorra and Dr. Vaughn are great), but I didn't much like my first view of this one either. The edition seems erratic. It looks like some scenes must have been cut, because the end result is T'Lorra acting unfathomably, one time going one way, the next time going into another, complete opposite direction. Of course, (1) she is a Romulan, therefore expected to behave exactly like that, and (2) I have been known to pass early judgment on "The Wine Dark Sea", so there probably is something going on that I do not know about yet.


I'd be very interested to read your reviews of later episodes, especially given your like of T'Lorra and Vaughan as characters. They actually get to really act together in 201 and their chemistry shines through.
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