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DHillMSP
So, there's an open question on the Wiki. It's pretty simple, actually, except that my head has hit the proverbial rock on this one.



What's the ship immediately below the star and a little to the left? Between the Insignia-class and the Excelsior? It looks like it has a hump on it...between that and the Galaxy-class-looking nacelles...yeah. bang.gif

Any thoughts? icon_mrgreen.gif
Thunderbird 2
QUOTE (DHillMSP @ Aug 12 2009, 01:20 AM) *
So, there's an open question on the Wiki. It's pretty simple, actually, except that my head has hit the proverbial rock on this one.



What's the ship immediately below the star and a little to the left? Between the Insignia-class and the Excelsior? It looks like it has a hump on it...between that and the Galaxy-class-looking nacelles...yeah. bang.gif

Any thoughts? icon_mrgreen.gif


David, which episode is the shot from? Perhaps seeing the ships in motion will help. - Could the "hump" be a bit of the Nebula behind it? The shape of the saucerr reminds me of The USS Legacy, but I know the nacelles are wrong for that. Maybe a New Orleans class? - They have got those sensor pod things built onto the saucer? wierd.gif
DHillMSP
QUOTE (Thunderbird 2 @ Aug 12 2009, 08:15 AM) *
David, which episode is the shot from? Perhaps seeing the ships in motion will help. - Could the "hump" be a bit of the Nebula behind it? The shape of the saucerr reminds me of The USS Legacy, but I know the nacelles are wrong for that. Maybe a New Orleans class? - They have got those sensor pod things built onto the saucer? wierd.gif


The image is from HF 1.03 ("Enemy Unknown, Part 3"). That hump seems to move with the rest of the ship...so I can't be sure. I've dismissed the New Orleans-class idea so far as it doesn't seem to have the pod underneath and the hump is a bit big to be those pods on the upper hull (although, I could be wrong)...plus it seems a bit too narrow. bulb.gif

I've checked out all the reliable sources (Memory Alpha, Memory Beta, STEU) and a few less-than-reliable ones that I lean on occasionally and I'm coming up with zero thus far. And nothing on scifi-art. bang.gif
Whiteknight


using the other camera angles from that episode, it still kinda looks like the New Orleans Class.

-c
DHillMSP
QUOTE (Whiteknight @ Aug 12 2009, 09:53 AM) *


using the other camera angles from that episode, it still kinda looks like the New Orleans Class.

-c


Actually, I'm wondering if it's a Frontier-class starship, now that I'm seeing it from the back-end...still doesn't explain the hump, but I'm not sure anything could....



Whiteknight
if u look at the saucer section, you can kinda tell it has elements of a sovereign class style saucer section, so I dont think the Frontier would fit that desc.
does rob not remember what ship's he used for the scene?
-chris


QUOTE (DHillMSP @ Aug 12 2009, 11:43 AM) *
Actually, I'm wondering if it's a Frontier-class starship, now that I'm seeing it from the back-end...still doesn't explain the hump, but I'm not sure anything could....


DHillMSP
QUOTE (Whiteknight @ Aug 12 2009, 02:12 PM) *
if u look at the saucer section, you can kinda tell it has elements of a sovereign class style saucer section, so I dont think the Frontier would fit that desc.
does rob not remember what ship's he used for the scene?
-chris


I've not asked him yet. I figured he'd just pop along and clarify eventually... icon_wink.gif
Glenn
That's not the Frontier.

It's a model that was kicking around Scifi-Art and/or 3D Gladiators back in 2000-2001. I suspect that if Rob hasn't cleared his files out, he may know. The nacelle design is very distinctive!

It's also possible Dan Crout remembers what it is - it may be one of his designs, if we're lucky, but I'm sure he will have seen it.

I used to have a copy, but no longer have any of my old CGI resources.
Rob_C
I'll have to see if I can dig up the original model. The second shot Glenn posted is the Dawnstar. The ship in the first shot is a different ship entirely. It's a carrier of some sort iirc.

Rob
Farragut79
Would that carrier be the same as the Nimitz and the Kursk that was mentioned later?
Rob_C
No, the Nimitz was a modified Galaxy variant, while the Kursk was that odd looking (engineering hull with a saucer in it) ship that was launching fighters in "Refugees".

I'm not sure I even have the model in question anymore as some of these I basically de-canonized which is why we never saw them later on. I had some pretty fan-crufty designs early on that were way too overpowered for Starfleet. (at least in this universe!).

I am still amazed at how many different classes of Starfleet ships there are out there both canon and non-canon. It just strikes me as overpowered, over-redundant, and maybe even a bit silly to devote massive resources to too many development projects, and Starfleet seems like it has 50 or so different ship classes in service at any given time. I know some are prototypes that never go into active production (Yellowstone Class anyone?) But still, I guess the drama demands it when you need a brand new ship for every new show that has the latests and greatest to come out of R&D. HF is plenty guilty of this mind...

For reference does anybody know how many active classes the largest Navy has in service at any given time?

Rob
Farragut79
I count around 50 different classes during the 60s and 70s.
Arkady
QUOTE (Rob_C @ Aug 15 2009, 01:18 AM) *
No, the Nimitz was a modified Galaxy variant, while the Kursk was that odd looking (engineering hull with a saucer in it) ship that was launching fighters in "Refugees".

I'm not sure I even have the model in question anymore as some of these I basically de-canonized which is why we never saw them later on. I had some pretty fan-crufty designs early on that were way too overpowered for Starfleet. (at least in this universe!).

I am still amazed at how many different classes of Starfleet ships there are out there both canon and non-canon. It just strikes me as overpowered, over-redundant, and maybe even a bit silly to devote massive resources to too many development projects, and Starfleet seems like it has 50 or so different ship classes in service at any given time. I know some are prototypes that never go into active production (Yellowstone Class anyone?) But still, I guess the drama demands it when you need a brand new ship for every new show that has the latests and greatest to come out of R&D. HF is plenty guilty of this mind...

For reference does anybody know how many active classes the largest Navy has in service at any given time?

Rob



In a modern navy there are older ship classes that have service life left until replacements have been brought online, and far more smaller and support ships than main capitals (at least that is the general rule of thumb) It also depends what roles you want these ships to fill (freighter, repair tenders, fuel carriers, patrol etc etc..)

At least when sketching trek stuff, i tend to do starfleet ships more geared to these support roles, (the Huron tender for example) and alien races.

I suppose since the Federation is such a huge place, they may have a lot of different ship classes in service, but some of them may be older ship classed and would have, I think, a pretty huge and varied support fleet to take care of the various duties that the big capitals like a Galaxy or a Sovereign would be a waste of time and resources to do.

One wonders how far the Federation resources stretch, or if Federation member worlds still may employ their own ship designs for minor duties like system police patrols and such.

It does provide interesting food for thought.
USSFiredrake
QUOTE (Thunderbird 2 @ Aug 12 2009, 09:15 AM) *
David, which episode is the shot from? Perhaps seeing the ships in motion will help. - Could the "hump" be a bit of the Nebula behind it? The shape of the saucerr reminds me of The USS Legacy, but I know the nacelles are wrong for that. Maybe a New Orleans class? - They have got those sensor pod things built onto the saucer? wierd.gif


Just FYI - the pods on the New Orleans saucer (and the 3rd one beneath the engineering hull) are self-contained torpedo launchers. At least according to whoever kitbashed the original model in 1990.
Farragut79
Honestly, I really don't see a problem with a huge Starfleet because what we have seen, Starfleet is the Federation's main naval force. The member worlds could have coast guard-type forces or national guard-type forces.

So we have three different types of carriers shown in HF, unknown carrier at the Battle of Devron, the Nimitz, and the Kursk. I like the variety of the vessels. I noticed a Type 9a cargo shuttlecraft (From the TNG Technical Manual) with the USS Angeles' registry flying around at DS12.
Glenn
QUOTE (Rob_C @ Aug 14 2009, 05:28 PM) *
I'll have to see if I can dig up the original model. The second shot Glenn posted is the Dawnstar. The ship in the first shot is a different ship entirely. It's a carrier of some sort iirc.

Rob


Dawnstar... that's it! I'd forgotten the name. Takes you back, doesn't it, Rob? I'm almost tempted to pick up a copy of Blender and start fooling around again.

QUOTE (USSFiredrake @ Aug 15 2009, 11:28 PM) *
Just FYI - the pods on the New Orleans saucer (and the 3rd one beneath the engineering hull) are self-contained torpedo launchers. At least according to whoever kitbashed the original model in 1990.


Funny, they look a lot like highlighter pens to me icon_lol.gif
Belgarion
I've always envisioned that the New Orleans Class pods were interchangeable and could be weapons or extra fancy sensors or long range comms etc. They did come from the era of the Cardassian Wars so that seems a logical thing for them to have.

I guess there could be a pen-pod. I'm sure every now and again the crew might need to highlight something... :-P

And personally I think carriers are tacky. I'm glad you didn't use them too much.
Chroniton
Could it be an early Century class vessel? It has the same yellow/god nacelle rings behind the bussard ramscoops.
http://www.fleetops.net/component/option,c...,5251.msg87738/

Rob_C
I'm tempted to say it was a Meridian Class ship, but I don't believe the model exists anymore so it may be one of those lost to the digital bits.

Rob
moocow1452
Oh, come on guys. I'd figure the people who run and frequent the biggest ST fanfilm site on the net would know that kind of ship off the top of their heads. I took one look at it, and knew it in a heartbeat.


It's obviously a "Moocow" class.
Chroniton
Errm I doubt it :

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Moscow_class

Arkady
/facepalm


And...



QUOTE
It's obviously a "Moocow" class.


She does look alike a big heifer.
Belgarion
QUOTE (Chroniton @ Aug 17 2009, 01:14 PM) *


2 things.

1- he said Moocow not Moscow, which is pronounced differently anyway.
2- Who comes up with these hideous designs for starships? That Moscow Class has to be the most idiotic design Ive ever seen.
Arkady
QUOTE (Belgarion @ Aug 17 2009, 05:10 AM) *
2 things.

1- he said Moocow not Moscow, which is pronounced differently anyway.
2- Who comes up with these hideous designs for starships? That Moscow Class has to be the most idiotic design Ive ever seen.


Don't look at me!

icon_smile.gif

That was an old design from FASA for their star trek roleplaying game for the TNG officers manual. FASA stuff was hit and miss - there was some good designs, and then ones like that, lol.
Belgarion
Don't worry. I wasn't looking at you.
I wasn't looking at Chroniton either. I've seen plenty of ships like that. I have to wonder what their designers were on at the time.
DHillMSP
QUOTE (Belgarion @ Aug 17 2009, 01:32 AM) *
I have to wonder what their designers were on at the time.


That is a good question. And then they wondered why they lost their RPG license, which seems to be cursed like the Defense Against the Dark Arts position at Hogwarts. rofl.gif

As an FYI, I've setup a Dawnstar-class page on the Wiki - was able to find enough material to at least provide stats, if not any sort of history. Coming up with zero so far on the two carriers from HF 2.01 ("Refugees"), so I'm leaving those as-is, at least for now. As for the Meridian-class Rob mentioned...yeah...not finding a thing on it.

Batting .250 on this kind of thing isn't that bad, tho. icon_mrgreen.gif

Thanks to everyone who's chimed in thus far. icon_wink.gif
DHillMSP
And now, of course, I have a new question...regarding an auxiliary craft.... bulb.gif



What's that odd looking craft flying in the center far-right of this picture?

fixed image link
Rob_C
David, I think I have the Nimitz and the Kursk still so you at least may be able to do a blurb on each at some point if you wish.

As for the aux craft, without seeing it in motion or closer, it's hard to tell, but I would guess that it may be another instance of the Star Tours Star Speeder 3000 that showed up in various places in season 1 as well as in ANG and later on as a Vrijheid civilian craft in Security Counsel and then later OBS.

Rob
DHillMSP
QUOTE (Rob_C @ Aug 17 2009, 07:17 AM) *
David, I think I have the Nimitz and the Kursk still so you at least may be able to do a blurb on each at some point if you wish.

As for the aux craft, without seeing it in motion or closer, it's hard to tell, but I would guess that it may be another instance of the Star Tours Star Speeder 3000 that showed up in various places in season 1 as well as in ANG and later on as a Vrijheid civilian craft in Security Counsel and then later OBS.

Rob


That'd be cool as regards the Nimitz and Kursk. I could probably whip up something on the ships at the minimum - may "develop" a class name and some minimal statistics on the classes as well (much as the Sovereign-M had done before I came on board, methinks).

As for the auxiliary craft, you may have had the same confusion on which one the question was about that I had (I think I see the one you're thinking of, and I see the resemblance icon_wink.gif ) - the ship at the very far right, casting the shadow with the obvious Trek warp nacelles...that one doesn't resemble the Starspeeder 3000.... bulb.gif
Rob_C
The Nimitz was the class ship, as was the Kursk. With builds that large, there were only the prototypes in the fleet at the time, though I did have a Nimitz Class labeled USS Sulaco as well for an upcoming episode that never got produced.

I see the ship you're looking at...



Unfortunately the file is called dropship.lwo. That's all the info I have. I am pretty sure this was done by Dr. Bob Crosswell back at Scifi-Art, but if he had a name for it other than dropship, I have no clue what it was. He also did the other auxillary craft that is often floating around Excelsior docked and it is a Martin Class shuttle according to the filename.

Rob
Rob_C
Okay here are a couple angles on the Nimitz...





Rob
Farragut79
Awesome, Thank you Rob. I am assuming that the entire secondary saucer is flight space and obviously it is a variant of the Galaxy-III class.
Chroniton
QUOTE (Belgarion @ Aug 17 2009, 07:32 AM) *
I've seen plenty of ships like that. I have to wonder what their designers were on at the time.


Lucy in the Sky of Diamonds...

The Nimitiz looks like a bad FASA kitbash design too. Adds a whole new dimension to the Two Mexicans game.
Rob_C
I don't know what you mean about two Mexicans, Chronitron, but is that really necessary? As a functional design it makes a lot of sense.

And yes, everything inside the phaser ring on the secondary saucer would be flight deck and fighter craft storage and servicing.

Farragut79
Are both saucers able to detach?
Rob_C
Not the primary, but the secondary might. Additionally the secondary saucer has a docking port for any Galaxy-variant stardrive section should it need a rescue.

Rob
Chroniton
Two Mexicans, a game played by many geography classes. icon_smile.gif

My point was that it does look like one of the cut and shunt kit bashes that comes from the FASA manuals and thus really ugly, why not have just a custom designed nebula style pod to carry the extra: fighters, shuttles, and maintaince for them? And why would such an exra facility be needed in the first place, galaxy class ships have large shuttlebays and carry not just shuttles but runabouts, (TNG: Time Trap) and worker bee's, surely they don't need more room then that, and what do all the other people in the second saucer do?

And if fighters and extra shuttles are needed why not use on of the specailly designed carrier craft Typhon class:
http://www.geocities.com/James9653/
http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/startrekfanfiction/index3.html
Rob_C
A Galaxy Class holds ONE runabout and some shuttles. This ship would hold a small fleet of them.

No offense, but the Typhon Class doesn't look much like a Trek ship, or terribly functional based on the MSD.

Also the Nimitz was a background ship, there wasn't time to design something totally new, though it was attempted with the Kursk. The Kursk was done as part of a Scifi-Art contest to design a carrier, iirc.

Rob
Farragut79
The Galaxy class is not a specific carrier and the vessel has a limited space for fighters, so there is need for a carrier vessel which would be able to carry fighters and support craft. The Nimitz class kind of looks like a mobile starbase.
Chroniton
As far as I'm concerned the Nimitz is one of the ugliest kitbashes of Star Trek history.
The MSD was a fan one no officail one has been released for the Tyhon class from Star Trek Invasion.
Rob_C
QUOTE
As far as I'm concerned the Nimitz is one of the ugliest kitbashes of Star Trek history.


Well thanks, next time you create something, remind me to tell you it's the ugliest thing I've seen to your face. icon_razz.gif

Rob
USSFiredrake
QUOTE (Chroniton @ Aug 16 2009, 05:09 AM) *
Could it be an early Century class vessel? It has the same yellow/god nacelle rings behind the bussard ramscoops.
http://www.fleetops.net/component/option,c...,5251.msg87738/



Though I really like this design, I think it only exists in the Bridge Commander/Legacy gameverse.
USSFiredrake
QUOTE (Rob_C @ Aug 17 2009, 03:11 PM) *
A Galaxy Class holds ONE runabout and some shuttles. This ship would hold a small fleet of them.

No offense, but the Typhon Class doesn't look much like a Trek ship, or terribly functional based on the MSD.

Also the Nimitz was a background ship, there wasn't time to design something totally new, though it was attempted with the Kursk. The Kursk was done as part of a Scifi-Art contest to design a carrier, iirc.

Rob


If I remember correctly, the Galaxy class was supposed to have 20 embarked craft. Although some were those large shuttles we saw in TNG (which, based on size, could probably be swapped out for runabouts), but there were also a lot of those little two or three seat shuttlepods that were about the same size as a Toyota Matrix.
Although the Typhon's warp nacelles look like the Galaxy's, it really looks like something from the BSG universe, or perhaps the Babylon 5 universe.
Farragut79
Not B5, but more Star Wars-esque.

In all honestly, the more I looked at the Nimitz, the more it grows on you. Especially if the second bridge is actually the space traffic control center, and each of the shuttlebay doorways pull up and the fighters are launched like on the real Nimitz with the Top Gun song in going in your head.
Belgarion
Okay. Anyone who has seen, or like me has a copy of the Enterprise D blueprints will know how HUGE Shuttlebay 1 really is. The Galaxy Class has a LOT more than 20 shuttles. There are 24 dedicated refueling stations for a start.

I don't know that we can say that a Galaxy Class ship only has 1 runabout. Just because we've only seen one fron Enterprise doesn't really mean much, since the four people using it were all going to the same place and would therefore have naturally only taken one ship. While I don't think it would carry that many (definately no more than 5, though I would suspect probably only about 3 or 4), there is nothing to suggest that they can't carry more. remember that Trek can only show what is necessary for a story and what is within it's budget.

The size of the main shuttle bay on Galaxy Class means that it has potential room for fighter if you want to use them. I personally don't like the idea of fighters and carriers. It think it's tacky and fan-boyish. It works in things like Babylon 5 where they don't have warp drive, and it was specifially stated several times that small ships can't jump to hyperspace because Jump Engines are too big for such ships. In Trek warp drive sysytems are able to be made quite small, most shuttles can still travel at low warp, and so this mostly negates the need for dedicated "fighters", since shuttles can be equipped with weapons anyway.
The only time we've seen "fighters" in Trek was during DS9 when they were called that once. And all we saw were "Peregrine Class" ships anyway, which have been called courier/scout/science/cargo vessels. Not that they couldn't be equipped with weapons in the same way as shuttles, but they aren't really "fighters" as such. No problem with Sisko calling them that though, since that's the function they were performing in that fleet.
Farragut79
I see nothing wrong with fighters and carriers in the Trek Universe. They are used as the same type role as real world fighters are, mass attacking capital ships. Or at least one of the roles of a fighter.

This is the same role we see them play in Babylon 5 and in Star Wars. Besides, the Galaxy Class would have to be refitted to be a carrier, especially since the Galaxy doesn't have the facilities. I can see the Galaxy more as an amphibious assault ship, like the US Navy's Wasp Class or the Royal Navy's HMS Ocean.
Belgarion
Well I stated the reasons why I feel that way. You're entitled to feel diferently.

And what facilities do you believe the Galaxy Class doesn't have?
It has refueling repair and maintenance, communications, tracking and recovery systems for shuttles, and thats all a fighter is, a shuttle with tougher weapons really.
Farragut79
Well a fighter would have more systems dedicated to combat and the need for more supplies in direct needs for the fighter such as munitions, defensive system parts, specific computer parts, engine parts, and others. There is a need for personnel who specializes in each area. There will, also, be more of a space traffic control needs with many personnel.

There is a major difference between a shuttle and a fighter. Just like a commercial plane and a jet fighter. A Galaxy class vessel is not equipped for a carrier role. Like I said, a Galaxy is more like an amphibious assault ship or a battlecruiser.
Belgarion
I don't know about that really.
Starfleet doesn't really use munitions other than photon torpedos, which normal sized ones would be too big for a small craft like that, A micro-torpedo launcher (which first came to light in the DS9 TM and is supposedly what the runabouts are equiped with) are quite small, can be equipped with a variety of different warheads and are intended to be highly automated.
Defensive systems? Well shuttles have shields, which is the main defensive system. They might be equipped with so called- defense counter-measures, that cause enemy weapons to lose their target lock on the vessel, which I will admit, we havent seen on shuttles yet, which doesn't necessarily mean they don't have them, they just might be something like phasers; a piece of equipment you have to actually install before you leave the shuttlebay.
What exactly did you mean by specific computer componants? Starfleet computer seem capable of pretty much anything, so perhaps you had something unique in mind.
Engine parts? Well impulse engines can be pushed pretty hard, right up to the warp threshold if need be. And then you have warp engines seperate. I'm not sure any sort of afterburner would be necessary since you can get right up to near warp speed just using impulse engines.

If by space traffic control, you mean monitoring all these fighters and making sure they go where you want them to and that they hit their correct target and not someone elses, you might have a good point there. Though the Galaxy Class has numerous "Tactical Labs" on board, which I'm sure one or two could be used for.

I agree there is a difference between a shuttle and a fighter, but mainly only in it's use. Their systems are essentially the same. I wouldn't exactly equate a Starfleet shuttle to a commercial plane, I think it would be more like a military transport plane: a C130 Hercules for instance (though a lot smaller).

A Galaxy Class may not be equipped persay to perform that role in normal operating times, but could be rapidly altered to perform it. One thing that we know about the Galaxy's is they they are very adaptable. They were designed to be.


that's my way of looking at it anyway.



(Just thought I would put that last sentance in afterposting, since I think I sounded a little bit bitchy in the rest, which wasn't my intention. :-) )
Arkady
QUOTE (Rob_C @ Aug 17 2009, 03:41 PM) *
The Nimitz was the class ship, as was the Kursk. With builds that large, there were only the prototypes in the fleet at the time, though I did have a Nimitz Class labeled USS Sulaco as well for an upcoming episode that never got produced.

I see the ship you're looking at...



Unfortunately the file is called dropship.lwo. That's all the info I have. I am pretty sure this was done by Dr. Bob Crosswell back at Scifi-Art, but if he had a name for it other than dropship, I have no clue what it was. He also did the other auxillary craft that is often floating around Excelsior docked and it is a Martin Class shuttle according to the filename.

Rob



That ship model is from the original concept art for the USS Defiant.

Link to 'Designing the USS Defiant'

icon_biggrin.gif





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